Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??


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Post Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:38 pm

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

Your wife let you write now Taron, ouch :D !
No hatred, just sadness on my side. But Sorry, I did not get what is the propaganda to begin with, and from who ? :shrug:
If you want my version of the story, here it is (i hope that my english is good enough to be understood): of course the killings in Paris were not for genuine religious reasons... but religion was definitely used by these foreign terrorist groups (AQ, IS) to remotely attract, hire and "reprogram" simple/lost minds until they are ready to sacrifice themselves to fulfill the agenga of the leaders. A political agenda. That way they found a very cheap and efficient way to make this war, no need of thousands soldiers. These few but efficient kamikase soldiers come from our countries, wow, well done ! But so far, they are losing.
regards,
GBoGBo
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Post Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:07 am

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

"To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity." - Oscar Wilde


GBoGBo wrote: But so far, they are losing.
regards,
GBoGBo


I am afraid not. See that was the reason for me to start this thread. Sure I have controversial feelings.
But in my opinion Charlie Hebdo even helped the extremists with their newest issue and their cover.
Making a gap wider, which should not be there.
I friend of mine, is part of the chief editorship of a big German newspaper. He told me that this was one reason why they didn't print the caricatures. Which I think was a good decision.

As taron mentioned, what about thinking the other way around?
Who could have been interested in using those silly and dangerous guys for their propose?

In Germany there is an awful movement against "islamisation of Germany" pffff.
Pretty quick they used this attack for their needs.
Luckily there have been more than double demonstrators against them.

What about France? Haven't read Marie Le Pens comment about this.
I am sure she found a pretty easy explanation soon. And a solution.
Heil Le Pen..brrrr I am freezing.
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Post Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:07 pm

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

Well I heard Le Pen (the father) invoking the conspiracy theory lol
Your friend is certainly right Knacki ! Maybe we see things (slightly) differently here because:
- We (french) know the usual content of Charlie Hebdo, the guys behind it, and we know that they are left-wing and anti-racist minded, not islamophobic at all. Yes, as active atheists they mock religion, but ALL religions, and mostly the deviant use of religion, not the believers themselves.
- France has this long tradition of mocking religious institutions (since Voltaire at least ?), and maybe this is not so true in other european countries ? I don't know...
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Post Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:54 pm

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

I see. Thanks for the explanation.
In fact, I don't know much about Charlie Hebdo, almost nothing about the people behind.
I have seen some other caricatures, which really let me laugh out loud. Very funny and shocking.

And still......I am not Charlie!
Or better, I was.... until the new issue

It was a very tragic and monstrous attack, shocking everyone.
But the reaction of Charlie Hebdo with Mohamed on title was simply a stupidity worth done by a teenager.
Not by well educated. Doesn't matter which background, or nationality.
Instead of targeting the Assassins and their organisations, they attack a complete religion.
How stupid is that?
Idiots, who didn't check the big importance jump they made from a little provocative magazine to a worldwide read issue with political and human responsibility.
They had a choice and they really messed it up.
I am sorry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/they-are-not-charlie/2015/01/13/7c9d6998-9aae-11e4-86a3-1b56f64925f6_story.html


As Germany was unified, there were jokes about the East Germans. That they have to learn to live in freedom. That they have to realize what this means.

I've been in Kiev when Euromaidan started.
They were singing for freedom, it was an overwhelming warm and lovely atmosphere there. Untill the first shot.

What I want to say is, that peace and freedom (without peace no freedom) is a fragil plant, we all have to take care of.

My condolences to the ones who left behind.
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Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:44 am

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

I got you point Knacki, and it is good to discuss with you.
Interstingly enough though, the Washington Post page that you are linking is dated January 13. Last Charlie Hebdo "survivors" massive controversial title was issued on January 14 !

The Washington Post paper is worth reading, it begins by saying that some young french muslims, just a few of them across France, did not respect, at school, the one-minute silence that the french gouvernment decided on January 8, in the memory of the 12 killed one day before at the Charlie Hebdo headquarters in Paris. For them, again they are not numerous but they exist, it seems that blasphemies according to Islam dogma (referring to cartoons figuring Muhammad in some Charlie Hebdo previous issues, when it was printed at only 40.000 per week) is a crime than can justify taking human lifes.
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Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:18 pm

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

Teenagers are immensely impressionable, you know, and they have a hard time to shake off what they believe makes them strong. Sometimes it doesn't even take a strong conviction for them to fly off the handle for some random cause. That's why most soldiers are recruited young. It's not because of their physical traits, but because of their "simple" minds. They don't need to "understand" what they're fighting for, they just have to be told that some "enemy" corrupts their way of life in one form or another. Tell them that this enemy is generally worthless and that this enemy does more harm than good and soon enough those kids have no visible respect left. I would consider them innocent. Yet, I'd love to help them wake up and become conscious to how their human power is being suppressed with false ideals, how they cut their own potential short and load a monkey on their back that won't let go for a large part of their lives.
I remember our own stupidity when we were like 15 or 16. Back then such an age meant about twice the maturity of the kids today, if you asked me, haha. Yet, we still would blurt out provocative bullshit without any understanding for what that was saying. That phase went by very quickly, though, haha...thankfully. :roll:

I think, it's pretty safe to say that the majority of people on earth are still stuck in superficial fairy tales, when it comes to belief. That's why you have the disgruntled atheists on the other side, who are stuck in a state of faithlessness, which weakens them just as much, but in the other direction. I'm sure they believe that they're not as dangerous, haha, but that doesn't provide them with any greater clarity about the depth of our connection to each other and everything that is. In fact, I think that true atheism is a form of psychopathy, whereas most, who consider themselves as atheists simply disdain the nonsensical face of religious dogma and are awake enough to see the call for fear and worship of dogmatic personifications of deity makes no sense, is ridiculous and even dangerous. They say: "there is no god", by which they mean: "there is no giant dude with a white beard, who sees and judges everything and is the creator of all things". And there they are perfectly right. But that's not the discussion, is it?!
Anyway...we all need or at least want orientation in life. We get that by the means of some reliable absolutes for our mental anchorage. For some people gravity is totally adequate, haha. For others they adhere to what they've been taught. That is the rug they walk on through life. Pull that rug from under their feet and they'll go bonkers with fear. Set that rug on fire and they'll go berserk with hatred and rage. How is it "freedom" to set such fires? What's the use or benefit? Just because some are used to walking on cold tiles doesn't entitle them to set fires on those with more sensitive feet, does it!? :? :lol: :|

Okok, you're right, I should rather program some more! :oops:
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Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:05 pm

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

EDIT:
upps taron wrote first and found some lovely words.

Yes, from my point of view they are pretty crazy.
Killing for a drawing is absolutley madness, I am with pilou.
Unbelieveable that this is part of our modern life.
But with globalisation we getting closer.
News are instandly available all over the world.

Hitting people with all different backgrounds.

As this article is from January 13th - what I didn't check, it is even more evident, what kind of bomb is living amongst us.
I am pretty sure, after the new issue, the acceptance of the assault is even getting bigger, as the will to see a terrorist behind every long beart.
Separation, fear, hate. Enemies of freedom and democracy.

Yesterday, I discussed this theme with a friend from Korea and some German friends.
Respect is a very big part of eastern civilisations. Older people, parents and religion are deserving respect (and billion other things).
She had somehow same argueing with her German husband, as we have.i
As he was saying that the title was a natural consequence of the attack, that this was exactly as it should have been in a free press country, she was pretty shocked about the respectless way. In Asia, religion is tabu.
O.K. I am not that sensitive as I said.
But even the biggest representive of press freedom yesterday ( interestingly working mostly for rainbow press ) started to think a bit different about the missed chance to send a sign of freedom. Just a bit, still saying everything was exactly like he would have done. :)
Even the first less worse pope since ages, missed to give this sign saying (free out of memory) "If someone attacks my mother (religion) he have to count with me beating him too"
So, as you said in your first post, yes, the Charlie Hebdo title was a very natural reaction, leaded more by instinct than intelligence.
But second is what we need to get peace back.

I can't say, that I would feel very comfortable walking through the deep Turkish parts of Duisburg, Germany.
I can't say, I have plenty of muslim friends.
But not only this forum shows me, how much we could from each other.
And it is up to us, to break this separation more giving their children work, hope and future in our countries, instead of beeing respectless about the (sometimes) only few things they respect.

As a conclusion: If we want achieve just a bit of tarons wonderful world ideal, we all have to take care.
And for me personally "Je suis Charlie" could have been one beautiful sign for the beginning.
Those goose-skin moments in Paris, with all those brave and lovely hearts on the street.
Then.
SLAM!!
New title against all muslims.
Sad.
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Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:35 pm

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

Does anyone else sense just how much of a redundant distraction all of this is, besides the effects these troubles bring along!?
We have so many pressing issues brewing up these days that are fundamental to all of us on a much more basic level. Starting with bizarre agricultural developments, effecting our food supply over medical industry madness to the mother of all control mechanisms: financial system. What ever happens now will most likely be used to justify adjustments to all these matters. Subversion may find a much more sensitive threshold...I really think we're in the thick of some increasingly spooky times.
Imagine what would happen, if all the people, who are subjects to the major systems, suddenly don't look at each other as thread anymore, but to the systems that govern them!! :o
I'm almost certain that this is another increasing concern to the governing systems. Major events have been obvious enough to make many people turn their eyes towards (against) their own leadership. This has spawned a massive increase in subversion. People begin to question the authority of various instances that represent the control mechanisms of our societies. Alternative movements have begun to emerge such as bitcoins, for example. Did you notice how quickly the powers to be turned against them, starting to declare that as the currency of terror, vicious opportunism or futile money traps and so on. This thing was already poking the hornets nest. Surely it's not the only thing. Various communities are exploring alternative trade methods. I believe, it's an Austrian region that experiments with using labor time as currency- even if I think that that's also hideous, but well... they are most certainly only one of many new ideas, who try to cut lose from a crackling dynasty. Meanwhile you see countless TV shows and movies that declare humanity to be totally lost without the current system. Zombies, murderous gangs, dog eats dog, evil cult leaders, pandemics, starvation...all of that we would face, if we were to detach ourselves from the way things are run now.
While you are being peppered with this crap, corroding away your imagination, your immediate reality is being eaten by a new war of religions.
Hmmm, it's quite amazing, really. I really hope this won't work out, haha, but I'm wondering, if it actually does?! :|

I could repeat myself again and again, but the most powerful thing we can do against it is to focus on our function amongst each other. This way we also get to sense directly what we need from each other and that allows us to appreciate consciously what we can get from each other in order to function the way we want to. Take root again within universal logic!
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Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:46 am

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

As you tend to focus more on global things, taron, I must say that I sometimes really ask myself who are the powers behind?
Who is interested in defocus?
What I am quite sure is, that, who ever gave the impulse to attack Charkie Hebdo and the supermarket wasn't prepared for this overwhelming reaction of brave French people of any religion in Paris.
The reason for my disappointment on newest Charlie Hebdo title, separating those people again.

Just to keep contact to topic ;)

But I agree, there a real huge monsters out there which is tried to make invisible.
Environment pollution i.e.
I've been in China last year. Bejing is able to make it's own air almost unbreathable. You have to filter the "fesh" air before you can safely breath it.
How bizarre is that???!
And every fuc**** ......car driver is buying SUV's all over the world. Moving and wasting much more resources than necessary. As there is no tomorrow.

That's one point I really miss, as you said.
As there are endless of end-time visions spread about, as you said no one is able to really draw a picture of a achievable lovely and nice future.
As the oceans are dying people look Harry Potter or Vampires in love....

Investor monsters like black rock are buying silently public property.
Leering at our drinking water.

On the other hand, the world starts to organize.
I really can't say where Avaaz http://www.avaaz.org/en/ came from, but on the first view it seems to be a good way to collect the worlds voice.
It is nothing against demonstrating by your own, but better than nothing..I think.
Does anyone have side information about them?
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Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:15 am

Re: Je suis Ahmed, je suis Joav....but Charlie??

I don't think at all that "they" weren't prepared for the reaction of the French people. If anything I would expect them to go:" Mahaha! Check!" :twisted:
Pollution is just foolish, but air pollution won't bring down humanity or life on earth, haha, at least not "ordinary" man-made air pollution. If you look at New York when everyone was still using wood to heat, we would've long gotten extinct.
What we do with the oceans and with the whole radioactive pollution of everything, that is a bit more concerning. That cancer is a pandemic, that's down right frightening.
Avaaz is concerning, too. I believe at first glance and by intuition, that is complete propaganda. As soon as you read:"0 carbon", you should be on your toes. This is the single most greatest bullshit of our times. If they would go:"0 radiation", I'd cheer for them, but carbon is not a pollutant, no matter how much they want to label it that way. The world is not going to heat up because of our carbon emissions, nor is it going to suffocate. For over 100 years we could've gone electric with our vehicles, though, and who was stopping us? Battery challenges? Nope. So what's with the hypocrisy?! How far could we have gone already without literally burning resources? Miles and miles and miles, but economic and political power matters were paramount. What in heaven's name does anybody believe has changed in that regard now? The powers that prevented us from freely inventing much more elegant solutions are the same ones that blame us for the- suddenly concerning- pollution. That is so transparently ridiculous, but...to see through something transparent still requires to have the eyes open to begin with.
And it is that very same blindness that is being used for those trendy separation efforts between belief-systems and a brand new wave of racism for good measure.
Yeah, you have a bunch of people pouring into the streets on a few days, but will the aftermath have any reasonable majority of people look with less suspicion at the Arab in the check-out line? Hmmmm...
Will TV shows and movies suddenly feature equality amongst all humans or will they continue to point their finger at Muslims?

We are in the middle of countless reasons to judge ourselves, taking the ease out of everyday life. Those reasons are provided to us along with all the pretty pictures and stories that are meant to justify this source of insecurity. These are some of the fundamental distractions, but not all. Does any single one of those concerns make you wonder about your occupation? Hardly. "Doing the right thing in life" is currently a hijacked question that keeps you from exploring your true function and true needs. Your true needs are less and your true function is far more than what you're being told by the same media that confuse your priorities in every way! Who is doing that and why?

I will try to keep pulling heads out of the sand (a more gentle way of saying that), so my "staying on topic" will be on the roots of this topic and not on the falling leafs. ;)
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