GUI and Real Media simulation Requests/hopes/suggestions

I'm a little familiar with coding and particle and fluid simulation from my VFX training, but this is over my head so I can only ask. And I'm not sure what you've got in mind or not, so i'll just list things I'd like to see in verve.

I attached an image to help convey what i'm trying to describe.
The Legend (in case you can't read it in the picture):

1. Colour Pot
2. Mixing Tray/Palate
3a. Wetting Water
3b. Cleaning Water
4. Drying Pad/Rag
5. Customizable Colour Palate
6. Custom Paint Presets

The Cursor:
C1. Center "Implying" Crosshair. (doesn't obstruct the center pixels) [optional is best]
C2. Minimum to Active/Current Pressure ring (it's already there, I just put it there for reference)
C3. Maximum Pressure Ring (it's already there, I just put it there for reference)
C4. Amount of Paint on Brush
C5. Amount of Water in Brush/Wetness

Okay an idea I had/was looking for was traditional media simulation. The image I attached has a lot of intuitive GUI concepts going along with my idea based off, but they're just to help with what i'm trying to say.
So after watching a lot of traditional media artists and masters at work, I tried to figure out how to emulate it digitally. I noticed a couple things.

1. Paint on a real paintbrush is used up and has to be refilled by going back to the pot, but not necessarily after every stroke, like they do digitally. and I've noticed masters making conscious use of that trait.
2. Same with water/brush wetness.
3. A digital artist can't look at the object in their hand or feel to determine the paintiness or wetness of their brush.

these present some challenges
for 1 I though something like with the Colour Pot (1. in the picture) an artist could use their stylus (I use tablets so I'll talk on behalf of tablet users not mouse users.) to pick up paint on the brush from the Colour Pot. It can also benefit from pressure sensitivity, mimicking scooping vs dabbing. as well as inversely based on velocity. slower movement means more paint while swifter means less. The harder an artist presses the more paint the brush takes on. This is what the Amount of Paint on Brush (C4) indicator is for next to the cursor.
And as the paint is used up in the strokes something like the Build Up value decreases but is inversely affected by pressure of the stylus. because the harder you press the less room the brush is leaving room for paint to build up. right?
And the artist can clean the brush in the Cleaning Water (3b) Based on velocity and pressure. Which increases the Water in the Brush(C5). Leading to the other thing.

2 Brush wateriness: If an artist has their own Custom Paint Presets (6.) types which have their own values of drying speed/chroma blend/build up/fluidity/etc... then you can have modifying values based on the wateriness of the brush. The wetter the brush, the fluidity, blending, and smudge chroma go up, and the fluid smudge, fluid sharpness, build up, and fluid: colour push goes down. or something like that.
The Wetting Water (3a.) makes the brush wetter, but doesn't remove paint, while the Cleaning Water (3b.) Makes the brush wetter and removes paint. The Drying Pad/Rag (4.) dries the Brush, and may also remove paint, based on pressure and inverse based on velocity. because the rag doesn't have enough time to absorb the water.



Things I think should and shouldn't be included as Custom Paint Preset (6.) attributes.

Should:
-Fluidity
-Fluid: Sharpness
-Fluid: Smudge
-Fluid: Colour Push
-Smudge Chroma
-Drying Speed
-Build Up (brush)
-Blending (brush)
-Opacity Toggle (brush)
-Bump (layer)
-Glossiness (layer)
-Metallic (layer)
-Opacity (layer)

Shouldn't (mostly obvious):
-Colour (HSV/RGB-SG)
-Brush size
-Bristles
-Bristle Size
-Brush shape
-Canvas stuff
-Visibility (layer)
-High Quality

And artists being able to name and export/import/share Customizable Colour Palate and Custom Paint Presets would be very useful, both for keeping project files small and for sharing with other artists.

I hope I was clear in what I was trying to convey. I wasn't being exact with what is affected by what how (pressure/velocity/etc.). This is just a rough concept for something I think Verve could do that I don't think any other painting software can really do.

Any Questions?

[Taron]

Oh, that's very cool, Johnny! Thank you for putting in all the effort!
I'm presently reworking the entire interface, but I'm still on the fence in regards to 'simulating real media", you know. Verve is meant to have its own natural powers, borrowing concepts of the real world that we may be familiar with. At the same time I really want to forge it into the independent medium it really can be, going beyond what traditional media can provide.
As I ponder over functionality, I realize that I want to retain some of the purely virtual aspects, controlling the fluids. Yet, I also want to add access that can be considered logical or familiar based on reality. I don't want one to exclude the other, you know.

The most important thing to me, though, is that it won't feel suffocating when you have the interface visible. It's true that one can get used to almost everything, but that doesn't necessarily make it pleasant or a pleasant process to get there. (I'm used to the Zbrush interface, too, you know!?)

However, part of what I'm already doing is a mixing pallet, where you can switch between various modes/displays, too. I'm also working on natural ways of dealing with the liquidity of paint, but it alters the fluid dynamics solution quite a bit. I feel like I'm on to something interesting, but I really don't want to lose the fun aspect of what I've got going already. The currently released version doesn't reflect the coolness of what's already working in the next, but it's already at risk due to the attempt to include more of a simulation.
Brush presets are a given and already in the mix. I'm still having to rework my universal brush class, but it'll be sweet for sure. Here, too, I'm on the fence in regards to bringing in traditional brush customizations; arranging and cutting bristles on a brush, possibly even choosing properties of the fiber, or being much more honest by providing a more digitally logic access to the brush properties, which I'd prefer. But it's still a work in progress as everything else. Oh, by the way, that includes the choice to have paint run out as you use the brush, which I'll hook to a decay or release parameter in the brush settings/color cross-over interface section.

At the end it's about it being useful and fun in a truly enjoyable balance. I want people to explore from to ground up to all heights above. Production in a stressful environment to satisfy clients before yourself is not my goal with Verve. That you can pull it into such tragic circumstances is a different story. Even in the earlier versions I've used it successfully and wonderfully in a big project and it's been a stunning experience. Alone that you can export color and bump separately, guaranteeing a match, whilst playfully designing what you want or need...it's very pleasant and fast. I've made textures with opacity and bump for plants, trees and foliage with Verve, immediately working perfectly the way I wanted it. Sure, it made me want to have a whole bunch of more features, but non of them actually had anything to do with real media. It was rather about arrangement/layout on the canvas, additional guide and symmetry features and some content adjustment means for form and color.

We shall see. Oh, I already, too, have visual feedback on the interface as to how you're painting (paint, smudge, erase or average), while you can also use those buttons to switch rather than hotkeys. That also goes for masking and warping. It's amazingly more pleasant to have those things on the GUI, haha, it really is. I also have paint modes visible so you can toggle through the existing three modes ( "=" which is fixed material amount under your brush, ">" which is build-up based as it had always been, "+" which is additive for glowing, but I'll add more modes later on for sure!).
One major difference between Verve and practically all other painters I know of is that you may use presets to switch brushes, but really you can comfortably be in full control over the parameters and work with "one preset" for a long time before even thinking about having to "switch". One set of parameters can turn any brush into any other brush, no fixed Oil, pencil, eraser, knife, watercolor, blender, smudge, or what not slots, you know. It's so open, you can invent your own thing at any time or simply turn it into the extension of your mind, your thought into a device to visualize them or just play around without many limits.
It's no small task to make a pleasant GUI that hooks all those parameters together comfortably. But I hope I'll manage.
Part of my present concept is to allow you to chose which sections of parameters you want to include into the preset, and which you ignore. You may have a preset include paint mode, brush size and fluidity along with form of the brush, bristles and image sequences and traits or isolate any of those. On one hand this could make things a bit more complicated, but I'm trying to make it feel as simple as possible so that you won't have to be exposed to the full blunt of customization it permits.
My goal remains to get everyone involved with having fun in Verve, you know, not only experts or heavily dedicated artists. But it will always require some thought for sure.

Thank You for sharing this in-depth glimpse into where your going with Verve Taron.
Its always a pleasure to hear you talk about the things you are mulling over
The universal brush class alone has me reeling with anticipation….so clearly the way to go…yeah!
Hope your enjoying your holiday!

s

Thank you, that was a very interesting read. I have nothing of great value to contribute here, just wanted to let you know that I greatly enjoy hearing and reading your thoughts on the development of Verve.

[Taron]

Just you wait until I'm done with the next release!
Hmmmm...well, unless I'm losing my mind in the meantime over the amount of changes it will have. A lot, a lot, a lot of things will be different. It most certainly will underline the "prototype" nature of what you know thus far. The interface will be radically different, even many of the mechanics will be very, very different. I'll do my best to maintain enough familiarity so that you all can continue to feel right at home with Verve, but most importantly I will try to enable you to build your own comfort zone with it, if I manage to do that. Part of it will also include a potential language file involvement, but for that I will give everyone the means to just write their own labels and texts and share them with everyone here.
Same goes for hotkeys and such...but I'm sure the hottest thing will be the exchange of brushes and other settings.

Holy moly, that's a very exciting release to look forward to!
I'm always up for radical UI changes if they improve workflow.
Still waiting for one like that for ZBrush...
Bring it on, I'm excited!